A recent discussion on God and State

The Pledge of Allegiance and God

The following is a transcript of a recent discussion I had on a social networking site. When the Fourth of July was looming large, I could help but be reminded of the rabid patriotism and fervent discussions of what our Founding Fathers intended (not withstanding Michele Bachmann’s recent interpretation of history and slavery). There are those who apparently wish things existed that don’t and sentiments that are interpreted as part of our legal and documental history. And yes, I disagree that God appears on our currency as well. Separation of church and state means exactly that… we are a country of many gods and religions, not just Christians. We all deserve representation or none of us deserve it. Read and comment if you like…

DC:
Everybody, let’s do this….We should flood Facebook with this….”I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under GOD, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all”. REPOST IF YOU THINK GOD, OUR COUNTRY, OUR FLAG, AND OUR MILITARY DESERVE RESPECT!!!!…… Let’s just see how many AMERICANS will re-post
BF: I did and thank you. Bebop
Patrick Nance: The phrase “under God” was not inserted in the Pledge until the 1950’s as a way to make the godless Communists have to say the word God or they would be outed. Congress itself did not say the Pledge every day until 1999. I object to the “under God” phrase as it once again inserts our religious beliefs into a governmental statement. This country was founded on a principle of freedom FROM religion. If you are an atheist, you are welcome… that is between you and God. As I once read on a bumper sticker “If you don’t believe there is a Hell, you’d better be right!” Sorry but this why we have free speech in our country… under God does not belong on our currency either… if we want religious freedom and separation of church and state, then it has to be equal across the board.
DM: ‎@Patrick, this Nation was founded on a principle of freedom OF religion not freedom FROM it! This was because England didn’t want to recognize certain religions. By the way, if you believe the founding fathers wanted freedom FROM religion, I suggest you revisit the preamble to the Constitution.
BF: thank you David. As you know there is one in every crowd 😦

P Nance: If you read any of the Founding Fathers writings especially the guy who wrote most of the Declaration and had a hand in the Constitution, you would know that Thomas Jefferson was a Deist… he was one of the main proponents that government and religion remain separate to specifically avoid the same kind of problems that existed in England where the King, specifically Henry VIII, declared the Church of England as the official religion and began to persecute anyone who disagreed. As far as BF… exactly what does that mean “There is one in every crowd”? One who happens to believe in the intent of the reason of separation of church and state? There was no “UNDER GOD” in the pledge until it was inserted in a political move during the Red Scare days. If by being one in every crowd means I know enough to disagree, then so be it… I’ll be that guy who says the Emperor has no clothes… and it doesn’t make me any less of an American. I work, I vote and I participate. I am also educated and think independently. So you gotta a problem with that?
Patrick Nance: By the way, here is the text of the Preamble to the Constitution… “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” I see justice, domestic tranquility, defence, welfare, liberty and prosperity but I’ll be damned if I see one word about religion… so much for revisiting the Preamble…
Patrick Nance: If by chance you are referring to the First Amendment, here is the beginning of that text “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” that means freedom from religion and of religion. If I choose not to follow a religion, i.e. atheism or a religion not based on God i.e. Wicca, or based on another set of gods i.e. Druids or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists, then I am free to do so. None of those religions recognize the Judeo-Christian “God”… so are they excluded from the Pledge? I believe I have “revisited” all the documents I need… do you need more?
Patrick Nance: By the way, did you know the Constitution never uses the word God in the text? And there is this reference in Article 6 “The Constitution forbids any religious test to hold office.” A godless person is just as eligible as a godly one! So, if I don’t believe as you do, I can still run for office. Whether I win is another matter… I am not stupid and I hold enough degrees to know how to do research. Am I still that one in the crowd?
With that I rest my case that as we approach the birthday of our country, my belief in God or Buddha or Cosmic Muffin is of no consequence to anyone but me and my God… it is not the business of the government nor does it need to be reiterated in the Pledge of Allegiance. I say it because I happen to believe in it but as far as it being proper or necessary, it is neither.
Oh yes, I think I should this final statement by a Reagan appointee to the SCOTUS. I think it says it succinctly enough for me. “Those who would renegotiate the boundaries between church and state must therefore answer a difficult question: why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?” Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Conner on the Ten Commandments ruling, June 27, 2005